Study group discussion: Management of ARDS

Anyone over here who knows the management of ARDS?

PEEP

Positive end expiratory pressure and 100% oxygen.

It's like during expiration your alveoli collapse, especially in ARDS since their surfactant is gone, so to prevent that collapse you give a bout of positive pressure at the end of expiration.
I don't know how they generate it but this is the mechanism!

Aah.

PEEP is continuous flow generated at certain fixed pressure that stops the alveoli from collapsing during the expiration. Pressure usually kept around 5

So the pressure is kept continuous during the whole time?

Yeah it's continuous during the both inspiration and expiration!

Umm then why is it called "End expiratory"?

That's a very good question actually. Don't know exactly why it's named that way!

Ever heard of low tidal volume ventilation? Aka lung protective ventilation? Aka baby lung concept?
It's used in managing ARDS. Since many alveoli are fluid filled and the patient effectively will have lesser tidal volume than normal. If we give the normal tidal volume the patent alveoli will burst due to barotrauma!
Inspite of normal tidal volume - 8-12ml/kg, we give 4-6ml/kg body weight for ARDS.

Also, you treat the underlying cause of ARDS.

You even have to restrict fluid overload. That's the other most important point!

Yeah read that too, diuretics are beneficial to some extent. Steroids are of no use.

Yup.

Also NO (Nitrogen oxide) is of no use.

Yeah for ARDS. During the various trails for the treatment of ARDS they observed that increasing the tidal volume lead to worsening most probably due to inflammation due to repeated opening and closing of alveoli with each inspiration and expiration ultimately affecting the structure of alveoli and their ability to perform their job. Low tidal volume along with PEEP significantly reduced the mortality in the patients with ARDS. So that the standard treatment at present.

I read there is other device called high RR..it provides respiratory rate of 15 to 20 cycles per SECOND.

It has a very low tidal volume but..Almost 1-2 ml / kg

Study group discussion: Trial of scar

Can anyone tell me about the "Trial of scar" after C section procedures?
I have heard of trial of labour, not sure if its the same thing!

My searches lead me to trial of labour as well ..I guess they are.

It's especially indicated in cases of borderline cephalopelvic disproportion.

The obstetrician let's the lady go in to labour in a controlled environment. If the labour becomes to stressful and is prolonged unduly, the doctor immediately performs a C section

It's more like given the patient an opportunity to experience normal vaginal delivery.

Same thing i suppose can be applied to scar from previous C section.

You see the chances of rupture of the lower segment scar is highest during labour, so the patient is monitored especially for signs of impending scar rupture

Most common is pain and tenderness over the scar area.

A off topic thing due to c/s delivery a tv series named "the knick", a medicine based serie in the beginning of the 20th century in usa, i recommend it, the changes in surgery, hospitalization, treatments are baby steps, surgeons invent the tools they use, amazing!

Study group discussion: Lateral spinothalamic tract mnemonic

PAin and TEmperature sensation carried by LAteral spinothalamic tract. Mnemonic is "PaTeLa" (which is present knee).

Study group discussion: Urinalysis

Significance of difference findings in urine analysis-
1) WBC in urine - Pyelonephritis
2) RBC - Glomerulonephritis
3) Hyaline cast - No significance
4) Broad waxy cast - CRF
5) Dirty brown/granular cast - Acute tubular necrosis

RBC's may also be present in case of calculi or tumors!

Correct!

"Approach to hematuria"
1) Dipstick - blood positive
Microscopy- RBC negative
It is myoglobinuria.

2) Dipstick - blood positive
Microscopy- RBC positive
It may be kidney pathology or bladder.

In that case if RBC is isomorphic (not distorted) - urinary bladder pathology like stones, cystitis.

If RBC is Dysmorphic - Kidney pathology (When RBC is passing thru tubules shape get distorted)

The dysmorphic RBC are a characteristic of glomerular pathology not tubular.

Study group discussion: Compliance of the lungs

Can anyone simply compliance for me?

Compliance = Change in volume/change in pressure.

So it follows as lungs starting at zero before inspiration. At the end there will be 500mL of air. So 0.5L
The pressure of he lungs starting at -5cm H20 increases to -10cm after expiration.

It would be (Specific compliance)
0.5 L/ (-5cm H20 - (-10cm H20))
= 0.5L/5cm H20 = 0.1 per cm H20

Theres a few types of compliance. Static compliance and dynamic.
Static calculates the periods where here isnt any gas flow. So during the time where there isn't fas flow.
Dynamic calculates the periods of active(!) Inspiration.

But I know nothing about those two calculations.

What is dead space of lungs?

There are two types of dead space-

1.       Anatomical

2.       Physiological

Anatomical dead space is the area included in the first 16 generation of the bronchial tree. Its by virtue of the normal anatomical structure that this area is unable to take part of in the exchange of gases

The physiological dead space is when there is decreased blood supply to a particular part of the lung, but the air entering the same part is normal. Hence there is no exchange of gases. In other words there is an increase in V/Q ratio.

Extra-

Why secondary tuberculosis affects the upper lobe?

There is an entity called ventilation perfusion ratio (V/Q)

meaning the degree of air entering the alveoli of lung and the corresponding pulmonary blood supply to the same. The normal value of the V/Q ratio is 0.8

Pulmonary blood capillaries are a low pressure system, with an average pressure of 25/8 mm of Hg. Out here comes the effect of gravity, pulmonary blood is unable to perfuse the upper lobes that well .

On the other hand, Air when it enters the lungs it enters the upper lobes better than the middle and lower lobes

This fact can be applied to

Study group discussion: Legionella confusion

A few days back, we had a discussion on legionella.

Legionella affects three systems - Lungs, GIT (diarrhoea) and CNS (Altered sensorium, confusion, etc).

Why does it cause CNS symptoms?

Study group discussion: Case control and cohort study mnemonic

Any mnemonic for case control study vs cohort study and how to identify which study to conduct or not?

Study group discussion: Transpulmonary pressure

What is transpulmonary pressure and its significance?

I remember it's something like... General lung pressure without alveolar pressure. I don't know.

It's the difference between the intrapleural pressure and the alveolar pressure. The athmosphere pressure is constant, but air still needs to flow in and out of our lungs, so we adjust the pressure inside our body.

The basic principle is that air flows from higher pressures to lower, so we constantly change the pressure in our lungs to higher or lower than the atmosphere.

Transpulmonary pressure (when everything is fine) is always positive.

I'm getting what he is saying, go on!

Transpulmonary pressure is always positive, intrapleural is always negative and alveolar fluctuates.

That's how I remember from my physiology classes, anyway.

Yeah, alveolar fluctuates so that air can flow in and out easily.

Transpulmonary pressure is basically the elasticity of the lungs. The recoil.

Since atmospheric pressure is relatively constant, pressure in the lungs must be higher or lower than atmospheric pressure for air to flow between the atmosphere and the alveoli. It is nothing but the elastic recoiling of the lungs. If 'transpulmonary pressure' = 0 (alveolar pressure = intrapleural pressure), such as when the lungs are removed from the chest cavity or air enters the intrapleural space (a pneumothorax), the lungs collapse as a result of their inherent elastic recoil. Under physiological conditions the transpulmonary pressure is always positive; intrapleural pressure is always negative and relatively large, while alveolar pressure moves from slightly positive to slightly negative as a person breathes. For a given lung volume the transpulmonary pressure is equal and opposite to the elastic recoil pressure of the lung.

Study group discussion: Physiology books

Which is the best physiology book? I find Guyton to be really dull and Rhoades lacks details.

Ganong is okay, I guess.

Ganong has always been my first love.

I usually go for Ganong, but Costanza and Berne-Levy are also pretty good.

Costanza is not as detailed though, it's good for refreshing your memory the week before exams.

Yep. BRS is good for last minute revision!

Which are the simpler books for physiology? I know of Ganong.

Which was the other one?

Guyton?

Guyton is too extensive.

I read Guyton only in 1st year.
Good for clearing basics.

Yes, I find Guyton better than other physiology books.

Try BRS physiology.. It's little and has everything you need to know. Like it's smaller than Ganong.

Smaller the better!

I think it's 100 -  200 pages.

Study group discussion: Respiratory physiology

Does anyone have a mnemonic for respiratory centers?

DIVE!
The Dorsal nucleus is for Inspiration (tidal).
The Ventral nucleus for Expiration.

The ventral nucleus is especially important for forced respiration because expiration in general is passive. In tidal respiration, during the inspiration phase, the diaphragm and external intercostal muscles work. But the tidal expiration is completely passive because of elastic recoil.

Review question: Which all values of lung volumes you cant measure by spirometry? And why?

Reserve volume.

Functional residual capacity.

Vital capacity.

It's because spirometry measures through expiration. And the stuff that stays inside the lungs can't be measured!

What is the importance of residual volume? Why is it crucial for your body to retain air even after forceful expiration?

So that the lungs don't collapse on themselves. That's the most important one. There are two other uses!

Gas exchange is a continuous process, just because you expire, doesn't mean the gas exchange stops.

Third, the residual volume doesn't allow sudden changes in the outside concentration of air to affect your internal homeostasis. It takes 16 to 20 breaths for the outside air to affect your residual volume. This gives ample of time for your chemoreceptors to detect the slight changes in pH and respond.

Oh wow.. I didn't know this. Cool stuff. The breaths part though. Our body is waaay ahead of us than we think.

Totally!

Another review question! Mechanism of chemoreceptors? What passes through the BBB?

CO2 is not polar and is small, the BBB allows hydrophobic substances to pass through, so CO2 would pass the BBB.
The chemoreceptors monitor the H+ concentration of cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), including the brain interstitial fluid.
CO2 readily penetrates membranes, including the bloodbrain barrier, whereas H+ and HCO3– penetrate slowly. The CO2 that enters the brain and CSF is promptly hydrated. The H2CO3 dissociates, so that the local H+ concentration rises. The H+ concentration in brain interstitial fluid parallels the arterial PCO2.

Mechanism of peripheral receptors?

Oxygen potassium sensitizer channel. Lack of oxygen closes this channel, leading to increase in potassium in the ICF, depolarising it.

Do you know about the conditions in which you do not give 100% oxygen to the patient?

In cases where the CO2 levels are increased. Example, emphysema.. Cause the problem here is the respiratory drive is completely dependent on the blood CO2 level. So if you give 100% O2 the patient will go in apnea.

Yep. There's one more besides the CO2 indication. The neonate. Why?

Causes retinopathy of prematurity due to oxidative stress!

Study link!  http://medicowesome.blogspot.ae/2013/12/case-scenarios-when-you-dont-give.html

Study group discussion: Cause of decreased glucose levels in CSF in bacterial meningitis

I have a question, my professor told us that the cause of decreased glucose in CSF relates to permeability changes caused by the exudates. Which I find a good reason for the protein levels but glucose is not the same. In books and other references, I found the reason being bacterial and brain tissue consumption of glucose and non replenishment of it being the cause.

Can someone tell me for sure the cause for glucose depletion in csf in meningitis?

I think it's the glucose consumption. Permeability changes play a minor role.

Yes I'd also go with consumption.

Because permeability changes occur in viral meningitis as well.

That's what I also thought because permeability changes occur in all of the forms even the non infective ones.